Undergraduate Students Explore Big Data Medical Research Through a Novel Internship Program

Podcast Transcript

Dr. James K. Stoller:

Hello and welcome to MedEd Thread, a Cleveland Clinic education podcast that explores the latest innovations in medical education and amplifies the tremendous work of our educators across the enterprise.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Hello, welcome to today's episode of MedEd Thread, an education podcast exploring the Discovery Accelerator, an innovative partnership between Cleveland Clinic and IBM, and how Cleveland Clinic is providing undergraduates a unique opportunity to become acquainted with quantum computing's impact on healthcare discovery. I'm your host Dr. Tony Tizzano, Director of Student and Lerner Health here at Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, Ohio.

Today, I am very pleased to have Dr. Christine Moravec, Director of Research, Education and Training at Cleveland Clinic's Lerner Research Institute, Dr. Michael Nelson, Medical Director of the Center for Youth and College Education. And Nicole Fennell, Administrator of the Center of Youth and College Education here to join us. Welcome all to the podcast.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Thank you.

Dr. Michael Nelson:

Thanks for having me. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

So to get us started, could each of you please tell us a little bit about yourselves, your educational background, what brought you to Cleveland and your respective roles here at Cleveland Clinic? Nicole, we'll start with you.

Nicole Fennell:

I've been at the clinic for 16 years. I started when I was around 23, 24 years old. I came in as a department coordinator in research. I worked really closely with Dr. Moravec in the beginning part of my career, along with Dr. Erzurum. I really didn't know what I wanted to do. I had originally gone to school to be a high school history teacher, and life has it, you gotta switch it up. So the clinic gave me a ton of opportunity to explore that. And in return, I got my master's in healthcare administration.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Michael. 

Dr. Michael Nelson:

So like Nicole, I started in education as well. I was a high school language arts teacher, got my bachelor's in education, master's in education, my PhD in education, and my focus of my PhD was educational technology. And I was gonna teach teachers how to use technology and research that, but I had an opportunity that was really interesting here to come and work in medical healthcare education instead of K12. So I took that opportunity and while I was here, I had that experience teaching K12 and teaching teachers that when it was time to start the Center for Youth and College Education, it was a very natural fit to come in and work in this department. And that's how I got here today. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Fabulous. Christine?

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Well, I also started in education. I actually began as a high school theology teacher, which is probably unusual for a scientist. But after I did that for a couple years, I didn't really like it and decided I was going to change fields. So I went back and studied biology, and I actually came to the clinic as a PhD student. So something not a lot of people probably know is that we do offer PhDs here. I came as a PhD student. 

I've been here ever since. I have a research lab where we study human heart failure, and I more recently have moved into more educational roles. So I have a role in the medical school. I'm in charge of the first two years of the curriculum for our medical students. And I also am in charge of the 500 trainees who are learning how to do research in the research institute. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And I can certainly say, having seen you in so many different roles, we are lucky to have all of you, and Christine, it goes without saying. So in today's segment, we, we hope to explore is Lerner Research Institute and the Center for Youth and College Education, collaborating together to educate the workforce on the future of offering undergraduates a unique opportunity to work alongside researchers who are using the Discovery Accelerator. So that brings a lot to the table, and I don't, I don't want to go into that detail, because I think you're going to help us do that. So, Chris, can you help frame the impact of accelerated discovery on work being done at Cleveland Clinic's Lerner Research Institute? And what exactly is that?

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Well, I hope so, Tony, and I will certainly try. It is huge that we have a quantum computer here at the Lerner Research Institute. A quantum computer is a way of doing computational science much faster than a traditional computer. And through our partnership with IBM, we at the Cleveland Clinic have the first quantum computer outside of IBM headquarters in the United States. That's a huge innovation for science. And I think the best way to summarize it is to say that a quantum computer allows you to do everything faster. So we often hear the example that it used to take 17 years from the time you first start thinking of a drug that you might wanna use with patients until the drug actually came to market and was available for patients.

Much of that is the basic discovery associated with drugs, the science associated with figuring out how they work. We now hear that with the quantum computer, that can be done in much less time, perhaps as little as a year as compared to over 15 years. So that's one example. I think another example, and what it's important for people to understand is with the advent of technologies like genetics and bioinformatics, we have huge data sets now. So whereas previously we might have said to ourself, "If we take these 10 patients with lung cancer and we take these 10 patients with lung cancer and we compare the drugs they're on, can we see which drug is better?" Well, now we can say, "If we take these 500,000 patients with lung cancer and these 500,000 patients with lung cancer, can we figure out which drug is better?" 

If you did that on a traditional computer, it would take you years to analyze that data in a way that would say, "What are all the outcomes for the patients, and how do we analyze them and how do we put them together and take into account severity of disease, drug treatment, all kinds of other things." With the quantum computer, we can do that quickly. So the ability to manipulate large data sets is really impacted by having the quantum computer. And I think that now, because we have huge data sets, it's really important to have that kind of technology. This will accelerate the pace of research, the pace of drug development, the pace of discovery, hugely.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Do you think it will impact cost of those drugs if we can take it down from 17 years to a year? 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Well, not working for a drug company, I'm not sure I should give you that answer, but, but I do believe, seriously that a lot of the cost that goes into a drug is all the development that it takes to get to the drug. And certainly, those costs will be reduced radically. So I certainly would hope so. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well, that certainly is the hope. So, Mike, can you speak to why educating the workforce of tomorrow around the use of this kind of technology? Is it now looking at the undergraduate student who may not have had a even an opportunity to come close one, why is that important?

Dr. Michael Nelson:

So I think a lot of what we're working on is new approaches to research, new approaches to technology that are just so new that a lot of people don't know how to do it. Students don't even have the wherewithal to understand that they should be going into these things. So you look at like hybrid cloud and students being able to use their regular computers to interface with the quantum computer. And the really important thing is like we've seen this explosion of artificial intelligence. Everyone's heard about ChatGPT on the news and all these other things, but there's also been machine learning for a lot longer than that. 

And machine learning is a form of artificial intelligence that you can use for all sorts of different things. Adaptive predictive modeling to do research on, you know, many of the bio research that Chris was just talking about. Large language models exist. You know, they can create language and analyze language and do all these things, but every time you use machine learning or a large language model, you are crunching a ton of data and you are using a ton of computational power, and you need the computational power of this quantum computer to be really, really effective in the research that uses those things. So if we talk about supercharging innovation, doing predictive analytics, having students be able to do those things in this program is huge, so they can understand what they want to get into. 

Like Chris said, the amount of data you can analyze is absolutely vast with this quantum computer. And I know, I remember from when I was working on my PhD, the professor talked about, "When you learn new research methodologies, it shapes the types of questions that you can ask." And we need students to have experience with these devices and with this technology, so they can think about in the future what research questions to ask here and at other institutions that may have quantum devices in the future. So we just sparking that interest, sparking that intrigue. It's very important.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Or seeing the horizon. What questions can they ask that you would not have been able to ask through more conventional means? So Nicole, putting this into action, what does the program look like?

Nicole Fennell:

The program began about three years ago with one student. It was a pilot group, and at that was prior to CYCE existing. Once we were on the scene, it was very clear that the Center for Youth and College Education could pair well with the Lerner Research Institute in providing onboarding, soliciting for the program. You know, doing a lot of the marketing communications, as well as providing a curriculum outside of their experience in the Lerner Research Institute lab. So the program can be anywhere from 10 to 12 weeks. We've adjusted it from year to year. 

We're happy to say that it's been so popular that the principal investigators have asked us to keep the students on longer through the summer. So this year, it will be 12 weeks. It is a paid experience. The students get an hourly rate of $15 an hour while they're here. And we also, again, provide a curriculum that is not just their experience with that mentor and co-mentor in the research area, but also for them to understand that Cleveland Clinic has a vested interest on them becoming a caregiver once they graduate. So we're looking for students that are in computer science, neuroscience, data science, and biomedical engineering for this particular program. We want them to know the Cleveland Clinic way. 

So we have set up a 12-week curriculum. Each week, they're meeting with like our communications manager to go over what's the best way to formulate a business email. Believe it or not, that is something that a lot of students don't come out of with their college experience, as well as how to utilize Excel effectively, PowerPoint. You know, these are very smart students, but when you're in a business setting, it is a different environment from just what you're learning in your content. And instead of having on-the-job training, which you will have in any career, we're trying to set you up for success that way. 

In addition, your resume, interview skills. So work with talent acquisition to provide a resume template that the students can use to apply to Cleveland Clinic that makes sense. Where a recruiter is gonna see it and say, "Yep, this candidate is ready for this job. Let's put 'em here in this entry-level position," or wherever they may be applying to. And then we do practice with them on the STAR method, which is something where it's behavioral questions when you're interviewing, and how to effectively answer those questions when you are in an interview setting. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

So It sounds like you're getting a lot of real-life experience-

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

... out the gate. You've finished college, or maybe you've got another year to go, whatever the case may be, without actually having employment, you're getting paid for it. 

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And having it designed to help point you in the direction of success. 

Nicole Fennell:

Yes.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

I think it's absolutely fabulous. So Chris, back to you. When we look at the Cleveland Clinic-IBM Discovery Accelerator, you know, how do you see the horizon for innovation in healthcare changing? 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Well, I think there's a lot of important changes, Tony. You know, I, I mentioned earlier that I'm in charge of our PhD students and our postdoctoral fellows in the research institute. And these are highly motivated individuals who want careers in research or in something related to science. But none of them have had any training in computational sciences. They're mainly people who have degrees in biology, physiology, pharmacology, whatever it might be. And so as we look at the future, and I think Mike and Nicole both alluded to this, we have to think about giving all of our trainees starting at a very early age, computational skills, and the intersection between computational skills and healthcare and life sciences.

And so for us, it means that we are putting a lot more training in for our graduate students and our post-docs, but also, beginning at the level of high school and undergraduate students, starting to think about that interface. I think the discovery partnership with IBM will have a huge impact on the research discoveries that we are able to publish, but it also has to have a huge impact on our training, so that as people go forward, they learn these new techniques. I mean, it's not going to be good enough to learn how to do something at a lab bench. You're gonna have to know these computational techniques. So it will influence not only the pace of research, which will be huge, but our educational platform and where we need to go with people who are learning science. It will have to be the intersection between science and computational skills. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well, I hadn't thought about it that way before. You know, you bring up this great point. It doesn't matter whether you are working towards your PhD, your master's, you're in high school, or you're, you're in undergraduate work, this technology is dumped on top of us and no one has experience with it, so everyone has to be brought up to speed with it. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Yeah. Even our medical students, we're we're teaching them as well.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Exactly.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Because everyone's going to have to have it. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Fabulous. What brought IBM and Cleveland Clinic together? 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

You know, I think IBM and Cleveland Clinic had been talking for some time, but we were fortunate to have a very dynamic staff member, Dr. Lara Jehi, who had some personal interactions with IBM and who was able to start to create more of a relationship. And I think both groups saw the mutual advantages in partnering computational with healthcare. I mean, it's not one or the other, it's both together.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Right.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

So we are hoping to create the future of computational skills, but in connection with healthcare and life sciences. And I think both IBM and Cleveland Clinic saw the advantages that could be brought to bear and thought about, as we call it the Discovery Accelerator. It's really a way to accelerate the pace of research and change the face of healthcare. And I think that's what both organizations were interested in. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Perfect. Mike, what are some of the research projects that students have participated in thus far? 

Dr. Michael Nelson:

Yeah, so really cutting edge stuff. Right off the bat, I just wanna clarify, these students are being put in labs with very experienced researchers who are at the top of their field, but you have these college students working on projects like using a convolutional neural network to predict which peptides are immunogenic. Now that sounds like a word salad to some people, but basically this is going to help us make customized cancer vaccines in the future, which is just a stunning thing to think about. Additionally, we're talking about using machine learning algorithms and quantum computing to predict how proteins will fold.

Once again, most people, that means nothing, but that is something that is fundamental to understanding diseases and vaccines that will really drive forward innovation in that area. There are projects using AI to analyze diagnostic imaging. This is something that has existed for a long time. But again, as we've spoken about previously in this podcast, being able to do that at scale and just process images and images and images, you can find all sorts of really interesting things. AI is very good at finding teeny tiny things that people cannot perceive. There was a study recently where they found that elephants have these very minute noises they make, where they recognize every elephant has a name and they can communicate with each other.

And we were not able to detect that until we used AI, because it can catch these teeny tiny little things. And another thing that the students are working on, there's a project that's using a large language model to gather research articles, compile research, put things into spreadsheets to aid with that initial process. So there's all sorts of different stuff going on, different types of projects these students are engaged in, and they're doing things that just were not possible previously. And it's really cool to see.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

That's fabulous. It's, it's like the sky seems to be the limit here. So Chris and Nicole both, I'm not sure which, as the LRI has developed these educational courses around the Discovery Accelerator, who is the target audience?

Dr. Christine Moravec:

The target audience is everyone. To make it simple. So we started with educating people who work here at Cleveland Clinic. Of course, we have a ton of employees and we have a ton of people at all different levels. So we created courses in partnership with IBM that are put into our learning system here at the clinic, MyLearning. You know, it's the place where people take courses on all kinds of things related to their jobs. We created some courses in partnership with IBM on things like the quantum computer, artificial intelligence, machine learning, the hybrid cloud, which any caregiver could take. Because we wanted everyone at the clinic when they hear about it on the news and they say, "Oh, Cleveland Clinic partnered with IBM, what does that have to do with me?" 

We want everyone to be able to figure that out. What does this do? What's the partnership about? Why are we doing this? Why is there a quantum computer in the middle of the cafeteria? And so we started with caregivers. We have worked with IBM to make some IBM coursework available. They have a lot of coursework, so some of their coursework is available. We have partnered with three local universities, at Cleveland State, Case Western and Kent State. And with those specific universities, we have designed coursework for their undergraduate students and also their PhD students. With those schools, we have PhD programs in computer science, and we've created some higher level courses for those computer science PhD students. We are currently starting to design coursework for those at NIH who wanna learn more, Dr. Jehi has collaboration with someone at NIH, and we are working on more, I would say, executive level education.

So the audience is everyone. We would like to take it down to lower levels, so that younger students could, you know, learn more about computing and how they might do this as a career. And certainly, we'll be partnering with Nicole and Mike in the Center for Youth and College Education and doing that. But we really wanna educate everyone. We really want everyone in the city of Cleveland to be able to say, "Cleveland Clinic has this quantum computer. What does that mean? Why is that important that Cleveland Clinic has that? And what is quantum computing?" 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

[inaudible 00:17:43]-

Dr. Christine Moravec:

I'm not sure I could explain it really well, but we'd like everyone in Cleveland to be able to explain it and to know why our city is really coming to the forefront in this area.

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

It's a great opportunity for us in so many ways.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Absolutely. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Nicole?

Nicole Fennell:

Definitely. And that was a great segue. Dr. Moravec was talking about some of the high school students. So this is an undergraduate program, but there is a lot of interest from our high school students. And we have an advanced technology track within our paid high school summer internship program that sets them up for this pipeline. You know, a lot of the students in high school, they don't know what they want to do. They're anywhere from 15 to 18 years old, and this is a career exploration program, our high school program. So from there, that advanced technology track allows them to participate in the IBM program and the modules, and they're able to see what it really entails, as well as utilize some of their advanced tech skills in other areas. 

So cybersecurity, computer science, data analytics, database development, all of those are pathways within the high school program. And we talk about the undergraduate programs that we have. So when they're exiting one program at a high school level in CYCE, we are navigating them to the next piece. Okay. This is what we offer at an undergraduate level. Now, I will say a lot of our high school students that graduated last year did apply for the undergraduate program. And we saw some of the undergraduate students that participated in Discovery Accelerator applied to other college programming here at Cleveland Clinic, including our administrative track. So Carlos, I know he did a podcast here before, he was in Discovery Accelerator the second year, and in the third year, he participated with our administrative internship in CYCE. It shows how that pipeline is going. 

So our audience is anyone from high school to that collegial level, but to pipeline them into the programs that Cleveland Clinic offers once they're ready for them. And we do that not only by our LinkedIn accounts, Handshake, which is the college platform where they look for all kinds of opportunities, internships, but we also have an internal/external newsletter. And we're hoping to get on more of the young adult seen with social media soon in the near future, so they can understand more about what is out there. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

So many opportunities. And you know, you mentioned Carlos, I look at examples like that where you come thinking you're gonna do one thing.

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And then you see something else that wows you-

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

... and changes direction. So sometimes you find out that maybe this isn't what I wanted to do, but boy, look at this. 

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And that is every bit as important than heading down a path to find out you're two years into a degree program and oh boy-

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

... I need to do something differently. 

Nicole Fennell:

I think there's a misconception sometimes that you have to be put into this box, but Cleveland Clinic offers so many different avenues of what you can do. You can work in a non-clinical role and still have an advanced tech field or do discovery accelerator quantum computing work and not have to be in the research area, but you do research. I don't know if that makes sense, but you don't have to be just in this little box. You can do project management with computer science.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. I think even more fundamental than that, you just need to get your foot in the door.

Nicole Fennell:

Absolutely. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

You can come here and oil doors, so they don't squeak and find out that you wanna do something else. I'm serious. 

Nicole Fennell:

I watered plants my first job.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yep.

Nicole Fennell:

That was the first thing.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

There we go.

Nicole Fennell:

Water plants and make copies.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

This, it's an environment that encourages personal growth.

Nicole Fennell:

Yes.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And with that comes organizational growth, but you know, it's first-

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

... serving. So Nicole, this sounds fabulous. How do students find out about it? 

Nicole Fennell:

So we have a platform called Clinician Nexus. It is on the Center for Youth and College Education's website. It does close today for the 2025 season, but we hope to continue it in the near future. Each year, it's getting better and better, and we couldn't do it without Dr. Moravec's team and all of the PIs that sign up for this. But they can definitely learn more about it on our website, sign up for our newsletter, so they get all those updates in real time. And that link is on our website as well. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Perfect. So Mike and Chris, you mentioned Mike, that here we have these world-class researchers that actually are interfacing with undergraduates and they're liking it. Tell me more about that. 

Dr. Michael Nelson:

Well, I know at least some of 'em are liking it, because they, they bring 'em back.

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Michael Nelson:

There have been a number of students who, after the internship ended, we made sure that they were hired on-

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Michael Nelson:

... to continue after the CYCE internship continued. And so we know for a fact that at least those students were liked and enjoyed by their mentors. Also, it was just really cool at the conclusion of the internship to go to the poster ceremony and just to interact with some of the mentors and see the dynamic that was going on between them.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. I got to see some of these posters. I think they gave us each eight to kinda look and interface with. I mean, their enthusiasm for this is contagious. And you know, they divided it up in eight. So there were increments of eight. But I'm walking past one young woman and she's looking at me in the eye. I had no choice. I had to go to the poster. There was, and her enthusiasm for this, I mean, I thought, I just wanna see, I wanna do something with you and it doesn't matter what it is. So here, you have not only these experts, but to see that they appreciate this young student coming into their lab. I mean, what kind of, you can't buy that.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Yeah.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Chris is shaking her head. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Well, I think I also want to add, it's important to note that the lab environment, the research environment in general is multi-layered. 

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

And so when we have an undergraduate or high school student come into a research environment, they're not only interacting with the principal investigator, or as Nicole has referred to them, the PI who's the head of the lab. They're also interacting with medical students, people who have gotten a PhD and are doing some further training, residents and fellows who are sometimes working in the lab. And it, it's a good opportunity to get a little bit of a vision of if you went on in education, what would that look like? What would medical school look like? What would doing a PhD look like? They also interact with the people who run our labs, who are basically bachelor's degree people who have graduated from college and gotten a job in a research lab. 

And so I think, in addition to learning about the topic, they're learning how research and healthcare works in terms of the structure of the organization and what kind of jobs are available. And of course we think of all of these people, as you know, hopefully coming to the clinic and getting a job. So it gives 'em that multi-layered experience as well. And is also good for our trainees, the PhD students and the postdoctoral fellows or residents, the medical students, to mentor these younger trainees, because everybody learns by teaching. Right?

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

That is true.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

So it's a multifactorial experience, I would say.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. I couldn't agree with you more. I think that is so important. And there's also opportunity, I, by listening to some of these students that they network-

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Yes.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

... in ways that they just hadn't seen. And they are in a professional environment, the likes of which they probably have not experienced thus far, you know, which may seem very intimidating at first blush when you hear about it, but now when you're working with these folks, it flattens that hierarchy.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

And there's so thought that I think I can do this. That is so important.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

I don't know, I don't think you can put a number on that. So for all of you, what's on the horizon? Dr. Stoller talks about his magic wand. It's just what I want, a crystal ball or magic wand. That's all I need. What do you see on the horizon given your druthers?

Dr. Christine Moravec:

More. More.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

More of the same? 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

More students, more education, more interactions. 

Nicole Fennell:

More philanthropic funding. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Um, more funding would be really good. Yeah. More opportunities. But it's exciting for those of us who do what we do. 

Nicole Fennell:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

There are five people on the staff who were my students when they were undergraduate students. And you know, I've been running a lab for a long time, but it's exciting to see high school students and college students come and do research and then they go on and some of 'em go to med school, some of 'em go to graduate school, some of 'em go on and do all kinds of things here. They get jobs in labs, they get jobs on the clinical side. What I picture is more experiences of all these bright young trainees moving up and becoming my colleagues. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. I have to say it is awe-inspiring to watch this organization do this, because despite all the constraints and doing more with less education here continues to grow. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

At a pace that is impressive.

Dr. Christine Moravec:

Mm-hmm. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Any other thoughts? Did I miss anything that I should have said?

Dr. Michael Nelson:

It'll be exciting to see how this research evolves. You know, these students are involved. We mentioned before, the quantum computer is new and people are learning what they can do with the quantum computer and as they do that, they'll ask more interesting research questions and do more interesting studies that nobody's ever seen before. And being able to get these college students involved in that is a really awesome opportunity.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Yeah. 

Dr. Christine Moravec:

I think it's also important to mention, Tony, that if people apply for a program and they don't get in right away, they shouldn't get discouraged. We have a lot of programs here, we have a lot of opportunities here, but you know, there are limits on how many people we take for any one program. And sometimes, some of our listeners might apply for something and not get into it. And my advice would be, don't get discouraged. 

Look at different opportunities, look around, see what else is out there, apply again the next year. Talk to people about how else you can get in. I, I wouldn't want people to feel like, wow, it's such a big place and they have so few opportunities, I'm not gonna apply, because I won't get in. There's infinite opportunities and if at first you don't get in, try again or look in a different direction.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Very well said. And I have to think that when someone comes back to the table again and again, you take pause and say, "Wow, there's some resilience here."

Nicole Fennell:

It's true. I tell our college students that all the time, even when they're getting ready to graduate, "Even if you don't get that position you applied for, just keep applying." And like you said, just get your foot in the door. It took me over a year of applying to the clinic before I was able to even get an interview. So, and then it worked out so well. And I definitely have dranken the Cleveland Clinic Kool-Aid, and-

Dr. Christine Moravec:

(laughs)

Nicole Fennell:

... I am part of the family, but the opportunities are endless and it is understanding that sometimes you're not gonna get what you originally wanted, but just keep trying. I echo that. 

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well, I'm glad you came back again and again, because I get to see you all the time. You do great work. 

Nicole Fennell:

Thank you.

Dr. Tony Tizzano:

Well, thank you so much, Chris, Mike and Nicole. This has been a wonderfully insightful and thought-provoking episode of MedEd Thread. To our listeners, if you'd like to suggest a medical education topic to us or comment on an episode, please email us at [email protected]. Thank you very much for joining, and we look forward to seeing you on our next podcast. Have a wonderful day.

Dr. James K. Stoller:

This concludes this episode of MedEd Thread, a Cleveland Clinic Education podcast. Be sure to subscribe to hear new episodes via iTunes, Google Play, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, thanks for listening to MedEd Thread and please join us again soon.